Legislature(2003 - 2004)

02/06/2004 08:00 AM Senate JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
            SB 203-OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS called  the meeting back to order  and announced SB
203 to be before the committee.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR GENE  THERRIAULT, sponsor  of SB  203, told  members that                                                               
the  committee substitute  (CS)  [version B]  addresses the  many                                                               
concerns  of the  state agencies.  The purpose  of SB  203 is  to                                                               
implement a new system for  adjudications and hearing officers to                                                               
make them  consistent across  statutes as much  as possible.   He                                                               
noted  this bill  is not  a  perfect fit  to all  areas of  state                                                               
government. However, knowing that  people resist change, the bill                                                               
has been scaled back so that  it now establishes a pilot project.                                                               
He  said  the   common  goal,  in  working   with  the  Murkowski                                                               
Administration, is to achieve a seamless transition.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-2, SIDE B                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT said  those  existing administrative  hearing                                                               
jurisdictions  that do  not fit  well at  this time  were removed                                                               
from version  B. Those jurisdictions  may, over time,  be brought                                                               
into the  new system by  future legislative action.  He explained                                                               
that the  main source  of tension  involved whether  the existing                                                               
rules  and  regulations  would  apply  under  the  central  panel                                                               
reform, or  whether new  regulations yet to  be developed  by the                                                               
chief  hearing officer  will control  the  process.   He said  to                                                               
address  the concerns  about agency  expertise, version  B allows                                                               
agency   representatives  to   participate   at  hearings   under                                                               
conditions  set by  the  chief hearing  officer.  To address  the                                                               
concern  about maintaining  agency power  over policy,  version B                                                               
keeps the  central panel decisions as  non-binding within certain                                                               
timelines and conditions. In areas  of conflict with federal law,                                                               
version  B  authorizes  the   administration  to  follow  federal                                                               
guidelines where  required. In  addition, at  the request  of the                                                               
administration, the  definition of a hearing  officer was removed                                                               
and replaced  with a more  broad description of  a quasi-judicial                                                               
hearing function.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT told  members that the length of  the bill has                                                               
decreased from about 50 to 39  pages. He asked that Mr. Stancliff                                                               
explain the details.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  moved  to adopt,  as  the  working  document                                                               
before  the committee,  the proposed  committee substitute  to SB
203, version B, dated 2/4/04.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  announced  that  without  objection,  the  motion                                                               
carried.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DAVE  STANCLIFF,  staff  to  the  Administrative  Regulation                                                               
Review Committee (ARRC) and to  Senator Therriault, said the good                                                               
news  is  that  the  fundamental applications  and  structure  in                                                               
version B  are unchanged. The major  changes made in the  CS were                                                               
requested   by   the   administration   and   several   concerned                                                               
commissioners  who  like  the  existing process  or  are  in  the                                                               
process of  making reforms  to their  hearing processes  and want                                                               
the  opportunity   to  implement  them.  Therefore,   12  of  the                                                               
jurisdictions listed in the Senate  State Affairs CS were removed                                                               
from  version B.  In addition,  the  Department of  Environmental                                                               
Conservation's (DEC)  emergency authority and  emergency statutes                                                               
that are time sensitive and  deal with environmental hazards were                                                               
exempted  and the  general DEC  hearing functions  will not  fall                                                               
under the  central panel for a  grace period of two  years. After                                                               
two years, if  DEC's in-house reforms are working  well, it could                                                               
make a case to the legislature for a permanent exemption.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANCLIFF said  the Department  of Natural  Resources' (DNR)                                                               
concerns were addressed by removing  DNR from the bill. Version B                                                               
is a  highly polished model; one  that will not be  too costly to                                                               
implement. It has a very  liberal transition period, requested by                                                               
the administration. The tension  that Senator Therriault referred                                                               
to,  between  the Administrative  Procedures  Act  (APA) and  the                                                               
model, is not  new. That tension exists simply  because not every                                                               
agency  conducts its  hearings  in  the same  way  and not  every                                                               
agency conducts  its hearings under  the APA. Those  tensions are                                                               
inherent  in any  process  that  is not  consistent  from top  to                                                               
bottom. He  said the premise of  this legislation was to  build a                                                               
model that  over time  would provide  top to  bottom consistency,                                                               
but  not to  force the  consistency in  a way  that would  be too                                                               
costly  or  would  "train   wreck"  legitimate,  ongoing  hearing                                                               
functions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANCLIFF pointed  out that  a  panel of  five experts  from                                                               
different states that assembled on  February 3 was impressed with                                                               
the provision in  the bill that will make the  hearing officer an                                                               
administrative   employee   who   will  be   appointed   by   the                                                               
administration. That  hearing officer will write  regulations and                                                               
expedite the necessary hearing  process transformations. The five                                                               
experts were a bit reluctant to  give high accolades for the fact                                                               
that  final  decision-making  authority  was  not  given  to  the                                                               
central panel.  The experts did  note that even though  the panel                                                               
will not  have final  decision-making authority,  the legislation                                                               
requires the commissioner to meet a  fairly high bar to reverse a                                                               
decision. The  reversal must be  in writing  so that if  the case                                                               
advances  to  court,  a  written record  will  be  available.  He                                                               
pointed out the experts from  the five states were very impressed                                                               
with the  fact that the  model in version  B is a  culmination of                                                               
all  the  best features  of  about  25  models adopted  by  other                                                               
states.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANCLIFF introduced  Mr. Andy  Hemenway, a  hearing officer                                                               
with  the Department  of Administration  (DOA) and  said the  two                                                               
would address the specific changes made in the CS.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:20 a.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF described the following changes to version B:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
   · page 5, line 31 and page 6, line 1 - language states that                                                                  
     this act does not create a right to a hearing that                                                                         
     otherwise does not exist in law                                                                                            
   · page 6, lines 7-9 - language states that full-time hearing                                                                 
     officers will be  subject to AS 39.25.150  personnel rules -                                                               
     these  positions  will be  partially  exempt  with the  same                                                               
     protections under  the personnel rules listed  in paragraphs                                                               
     (7), (15) and (16)                                                                                                         
   · page 6, lines 29-30, language says a person who enters into                                                                
     a contract to work as a hearing officer with the central                                                                   
     panel will be subject to the same rules of ethics as a                                                                     
     state hearing officer                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH   asked  how   hearing  officers   are  currently                                                               
classified in state service.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF  said it  varies but  for the  most part,  they are                                                               
fully  protected employees  if they  are not  under contract.  He                                                               
noted  there  might be  some  exceptions  in which  an  appointed                                                               
person, such as  a director, would hold hearings.  He deferred to                                                               
Mr. Hemenway for further information.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HEMENWAY  told  members  that   most  hearing  officers  are                                                               
partially exempt. He and a few others are classified.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH asked if version B will maintain the status quo.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. HEMENWAY said that is correct.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  asked  why  a  hearing  officer  would  be  under                                                               
contract.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HEMENWAY referred  to the  list of  agencies on  page 4  and                                                               
explained that  those agencies are  statutorily required  to hold                                                               
hearings  if a  decision is  appealed, but  they have  no hearing                                                               
officers.  When  a  hearing  has  to  be  conducted,  a  division                                                               
employee conducts  the hearing or  the department  might contract                                                               
with an attorney for professional  services to act as the hearing                                                               
officer.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked if  this bill  would reduce  the requirement                                                               
for contract hearing officers.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. HEMENWAY  said that is  the intent  but the bill  creates one                                                               
additional position,  the chief hearing officer.  The expectation                                                               
is that the consolidation should  create some efficiency and free                                                               
up  time for  the existing  hearing officers  to do  some of  the                                                               
currently contracted functions.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said that even  with a centralized panel pool,                                                               
there may be times when  outside contractors will have to perform                                                               
that function.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  agreed  that  the number  of  contracts  will  be                                                               
reduced, not eliminated.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF continued:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
   · Page   7,  lines   24-27  -   Sec.   44.21.555  contains   a                                                               
     reimbursement agreement                                                                                                    
   · Page 7, beginning  on line 8 - Sec.  44.21.560 was rewritten                                                               
     to  clarify how  a resolution  would occur  when there  is a                                                               
     conflict  between  regulations   and  existing  statute  and                                                               
     regulations adopted by the chief hearing officer                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF pointed out that  the administration will appoint a                                                               
high quality  person to  work with the  agencies and  develop and                                                               
carry out regulations in a  compatible manner. However, no matter                                                               
how well  the system  works, there will  occasionally be  a "rub"                                                               
between the  jurisdictions as the  transition goes  forward. That                                                               
section is designed to address such a problem. He continued:                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
   · Page 8,  lines 13-14, address the  confidentiality rule when                                                               
     case information  and materials  are shifted to  the central                                                               
     panel                                                                                                                      
   · Page 8,  lines 16-21, allow, if  an agency makes a  case for                                                               
     expertise,  the  chief  hearing officer  to  determine  what                                                               
     level of participation is necessary                                                                                        
   · Page 9, lines  22-23, subsection (f) provides a  30 day time                                                               
     period  for the  commissioner  to overturn  a decision,  and                                                               
     says if no action is taken, the decision becomes final                                                                     
   · Page  10,  lines  14-15, addresses  any  legitimate  ongoing                                                               
     action within an agency and  prevents the central panel from                                                               
     arbitrarily  holding in  abeyance  what  otherwise would  be                                                               
     good public policy                                                                                                         
   · Page 10,  lines 24-25, say when  federal requirements exist,                                                               
     they prevail                                                                                                               
   · Page  10,   line  28,  contains  a   shorter  definition  of                                                               
     administrative  hearing officer  at  the  suggestion of  the                                                               
     attorney general                                                                                                           
   · Page  29, lines  7-12, reinstates  the requirement  that the                                                               
     attorney general approve contract services                                                                                 
   · Page 34 contains the provision that puts DEC back in after                                                                 
     its two-year grace period - line 18 contains an exception                                                                  
     for the DEC functions that are extremely time sensitive and                                                                
     are rarely used                                                                                                            
   · Page 39, line 29, Section 71, contains the DEC 2-year                                                                      
     exemption                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANCLIFF  told  members  that  the  transition  period  was                                                               
designed  so  that  the  administration  can  appoint  a  hearing                                                               
officer and start  "getting the house" in order  within a liberal                                                               
time period.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HEMENWAY  noted the start-up date  is July of 2005,  when the                                                               
chief hearing officer could be hired.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STANCLIFF pointed  out that  version  B addresses  85 to  90                                                               
percent of  the administration's concerns. Addressing  any of the                                                               
remaining concerns  would have  diluted the  reform to  the point                                                               
where it  would not  work as  efficiently as  needed. He  said he                                                               
hopes the committee supports this balanced approach.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:32 a.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said  resistance is a natural  reaction to any                                                               
system change.  He noted  that DEC  resisted fee  changes several                                                               
years ago but  favored the changes after they were  in effect for                                                               
a  year. He  said  he will  continue to  be  sensitive to  agency                                                               
concerns  but,  hopefully, they  will  find  that most  of  their                                                               
concerns  have been  dealt with.   He  asked members  to consider                                                               
passing  the  CS  from  committee   today  so  that  the  Finance                                                               
Committee can address the fiscal aspects of the bill.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF told members that  the five-state expert panel said                                                               
if the  state wants to  build a  new model that  garners respect,                                                               
and  participant qualifications  are raised,  it is  important to                                                               
change the title of hearing  officer to administrative law judge.                                                               
He suggested that would be an easy conceptual amendment to make.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  asked   the  sponsor  for  his   opinion  of  the                                                               
suggestion.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT said  he  believes it  has  merit because  it                                                               
would highlight that  this panel will have  uniform standards and                                                               
a heightened level of professionalism.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Ingram to testify.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:37 a.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. DAVID  INGRAM told members  he recently retired as  a hearing                                                               
officer for  24 years with  the State  of Alaska. He  also taught                                                               
administrative law and  other legal courses at  the University of                                                               
Alaska  Southeast for  the  last 20  years and  has  been on  the                                                               
executive  committee of  the administrative  law  section of  the                                                               
Alaska  Bar   Association  for  19  years.   He  thanked  Senator                                                               
Therriault,  Mr.  Stancliff  and   Mr.  Hemenway  and  all  those                                                               
involved  in  SB 203;  he  is  fully  supportive of  its  general                                                               
thrust.  He said  anything that  will help  improve the  level of                                                               
professionalism in  administrative adjudications  in Alaska  is a                                                               
great idea. He has advocated for  the creation of a central panel                                                               
for many  years and  looks forward  to the  day when  all hearing                                                               
officers  are removed  from agency  supervision  and control.  He                                                               
believes the idea of a pilot project is a good idea.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM  supported changing  the title  of hearing  officer to                                                               
administrative law  judge. He  attended the  meeting of  the five                                                               
experts from other  states and said that several of  them noted a                                                               
discernible  change  in the  level  of  professionalism when  the                                                               
titles were  changed in  their states. He  said that  although it                                                               
may  seem like  window  dressing,  it would  mean  a  lot to  the                                                               
hearing officers to be referred  to as administrative law judges.                                                               
In  addition,  many titles  are  now  used throughout  the  state                                                               
agencies.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM  offered the following suggestions,  which he believes                                                               
are very  important. First, make  all full-time  hearing officers                                                               
employed  by the  state subject  to the  Alaska Code  of Judicial                                                               
Conduct.  The  Supreme Court  did  a  lot  of work  drafting  and                                                               
adopting that code for the "black  robed" judges in the state. He                                                               
said  it does  not contain  anything unique  to judges  and would                                                               
apply in equal force to  administrative law judges. Adopting that                                                               
code would  eliminate the  need to  draft a  new code,  provide a                                                               
code of  conduct at the  inception of  the panel, and  provide an                                                               
instantaneous  body  of  interpretive   decisions  to  guide  the                                                               
hearing officers in interpreting the code.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
His second suggestion  is to prohibit the practice of  law by all                                                               
full-time  hearing officers  employed by  the state.  He believes                                                               
that as long as hearing  officers are allowed to "moonlight," the                                                               
state  will  not  have a  professional  corps  of  administrative                                                               
adjudicators.  That activity  has serious  potential to  conflict                                                               
with one's  performance of  duties. He  repeated that  is already                                                               
prohibited in the Alaska Code of Judicial Conduct.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:42 a.m.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN asked if any  conflicts surrounding private practice                                                               
work are regulated  so that an attorney would  recuse himself. He                                                               
said  that the  Alaska Bar  Association holds  attorneys to  high                                                               
standards regarding conflicts.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said  that is true but does not  mean attorneys always                                                               
declare conflicts.  The other difficulty  is that the  extra work                                                               
distracts them from their state duties.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS  asked Mr.  Ingram if he  is suggesting  that full-                                                               
time  hearing  officers  be prohibited  from  moonlighting  as  a                                                               
lawyer but  the prohibition would  not apply to  contract hearing                                                               
officers.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said that is correct.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN expressed concern that  only the attorneys who can't                                                               
make a living on their own would apply.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said there are  many applicants for any vacant hearing                                                               
officer  position. His  third suggestion  was that  all full-time                                                               
hearing  officers be  prohibited  from acting  as  an advisor  or                                                               
judge  to  another  sovereign, such  as  another  state,  federal                                                               
government  or  Native  group.  He  pointed  out  the  Commercial                                                               
Fisheries  Entry  Commission (CFEC)  allows  one  of its  hearing                                                               
officers to be both a judge  and an advisor to another sovereign.                                                               
Alaskans  should be  sure  in the  knowledge  that their  hearing                                                               
officers are not in  a position to advise or sit  on the court of                                                               
a sovereign with  an interest potentially at odds  with the State                                                               
of  Alaska. He  said, in  his opinion,  the CFEC  situation is  a                                                               
serious conflict of interest in  light of potential disputes over                                                               
natural resources, fish and game,  jurisdictional matters and the                                                               
Indian Child  Welfare Act. He believes  it is a terrible  idea to                                                               
let  a  hearing officer  engage  in  outside interests  that  may                                                               
affect  the quality  or  integrity of  his or  her  work for  the                                                               
state.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  INGRAM informed  members  that he  attached  to his  written                                                               
comments  4 pages  of an  extract from  a decision  he issued  on                                                               
January  30,  2004  involving an  application  from  a  Ketchikan                                                               
resident. He suggested  members read it to get some  idea of what                                                               
is going  on in  the "real  world" regarding  professionalism and                                                               
integrity of the process.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  thanked Mr. Ingram  for bringing his  experience to                                                               
the committee.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said that he  believes that all hearing officers would                                                               
love to be more independent and be part of a central panel.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN said when he  introduced similar legislation 6 years                                                               
ago, a number of hearing  officers privately gave him the "thumbs                                                               
up" for  a central panel.  He then said the  term "administrative                                                               
law  judge"  is  interesting  because  most  people  believe  the                                                               
legislature  writes  law.   However,  the  administration  writes                                                               
regulations, which have  the same force of law,  and then enforce                                                               
them and deal with adjudications.  Therefore, what is supposed to                                                               
be balanced by three branches  is under one. He expressed concern                                                               
that hearing officers are pressured to  rule with a little bit of                                                               
a bias toward the commissioner they work for.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said was never told  how to decide a case. He suspects                                                               
he was  given certain cases  because he was  likely to lean  in a                                                               
particular  way. He  believes  the main  danger  is that  hearing                                                               
officers  become   friends  with  their  co-workers   and  it  is                                                               
difficult to criticize  the performance of people  one works with                                                               
and respects.  He acknowledged  that a  good hearing  officer can                                                               
step back.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  said he clearly  understands the  reasons for                                                               
Mr.  Ingram's  first suggestion,  to  change  the titles  of  the                                                               
hearing officers  to administrative law  judges. He asked  if the                                                               
central panel  adopted the Alaska  Code of Judicial  Conduct, Mr.                                                               
Ingram's  other two  suggestions,  regarding outside  employment,                                                               
would be addressed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. INGRAM said it would take  care of his suggestion to prohibit                                                               
moonlighting. However, he believes  the committee should consider                                                               
amending the  bill to specifically state  that administrative law                                                               
judges  should  not  act  as  an  advisor  or  judge  to  another                                                               
sovereign  because  some  people  would argue  that  is  not  the                                                               
practice of law.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT  said if the legislature  wants the efficiency                                                               
of a  central pool, it  would not want administrative  law judges                                                               
with  conflicts within  the pool,  other  than life  experiences,                                                               
such as being related to someone involved in a case.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS announced that he  was closing public testimony and                                                               
asked for further comments from members.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  thanked Mr. Ingram  for his comments and  said he                                                               
supports his  first and fourth  suggestions. He said  his concern                                                               
about the  second suggestion is  based on a  personal experience.                                                               
He  noted that  law clerks  must be  admitted to  the Alaska  Bar                                                               
Association  to  practice  law  and pay  dues,  but  they  cannot                                                               
practice law  outside of being a  law clerk. He said  his problem                                                               
is with the ABA and believes  it should establish a separate dues                                                               
rate for public interest lawyers.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-3, SIDE A                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  said he  is still mulling  over how  Mr. Ingram's                                                               
second  and  third  suggestions  should  be  structured,  but  he                                                               
believes the bill is in good  shape and appreciates the work that                                                               
has been done on it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT moved a conceptual  amendment [Amendment 1] to                                                               
change the  term "hearing officer" to  "administrative law judge"                                                               
throughout the bill.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  announced  that  without  objection,  the  motion                                                               
carried.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT said  he would prefer to  get more information                                                               
on adopting  the Alaska  Code of  Judicial Conduct  before taking                                                               
action  on  that  suggestion.  He noted  the  next  committee  of                                                               
referral  is the  Finance Committee  and, if  adopting that  code                                                               
will  avoid  having to  write  an  entirely  new code,  he  would                                                               
consider that as a way of handling the fiscal impact.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR THERRIAULT made a  second conceptual amendment [Amendment                                                               
2] to  preclude the administrative  law judges from acting  as an                                                               
advisor or a judge to any other sovereign.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN  objected and asked what  is meant by an  advisor to                                                               
another  sovereign.  He  questioned whether  that  would  include                                                               
consulting.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  said  the amendment  is  conceptual  so  the                                                               
drafters will have to define that term.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said  he  believes   the  intent  is  to  address                                                               
situations in  which the  work is  done for  remuneration because                                                               
the law  could not  prohibit someone from  giving free  advice to                                                               
another.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH read  an excerpt  from Mr.  Ingram's letter  that                                                               
cited the  Alaska Code  of Judicial Conduct,  "A judge  shall not                                                               
practice law.  Notwithstanding this prohibition, a  judge may act                                                               
pro se  and may, without  compensation, give legal advice  to and                                                               
draft or review documents for a member of the judge's family."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS said that is how he interprets Amendment 2.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. STANCLIFF noted that a  member of the administration felt the                                                               
term, "for remuneration or official purposes" should be used.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH  said that "official purposes"  should probably be                                                               
parsed out a bit more.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  OGAN said  he wanted  to provide  the drafter  with some                                                               
discussion. He  removed his objection; therefore  Amendment 2 was                                                               
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR OGAN moved CSSB 203(JUD),  Version B as amended, with its                                                               
attached  fiscal notes  from committee  and  asked for  unanimous                                                               
consent.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  SEEKINS  announced  that  without  objection,  the  motion                                                               
carried. He then adjourned the meeting at 10:01 a.m.                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects